三度目の京都

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語らう

写真家 中島光行

1/8

聞き手 「三度目の京都」スタッフ

「語らう」第一弾は、写真家・中島光行と、「三度目の京都」チームスタッフとの対談です。
「三度目の京都」プロジェクトの発起人でありこのサイトに掲載されている寺院写真を撮影した中島光行。彼がなぜ京都で寺院を撮りつづけてきたのか、そして「三度目の京都」プロジェクトに込める思いを聞きました。

まずは、中島さんが京都の寺院を撮りはじめた経緯からお聞きします。

中島僕の父がお寺とか仏像とか美術品を撮るのを専門とする写真家で、物心ついたときからそばにカメラや写真があったんです。でも最初は全く興味がなくてカメラマンになりたいとも思ってなかったんですよ。
高校生のときにね、詩仙堂にチャールズ皇太子とダイアナ妃が来られてそのときオフィシャルで入っていたカメラマンが父だったんです。で、僕は授業サボってそれを見にいってて・・・(笑) ダイアナ妃の靴の写真とか、そのときのオフショットが家にあったりしてね。ただそのときもまだ父の仕事を大したことだとは思ってなかったんです。
だけど、大学くらいになったときに思い返してみたら、僕の父はなかなかできひん貴重な仕事をしてたんやなと思うようになって。それで、大学を卒業する頃になって手に職をつけなあかんと思ったときに『じゃあ写真でもやるか』って、他のカメラマンの方々には本当に失礼な話なんですが最初はそんな軽い気持ちでカメラマンを志しました。

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Interview

Photographer: Mitsuyuki Nakajima

01/08

We first start off the “Katarau (Dialogue)” section with our photographer, Mitsuyuki Nakajima, and his very interesting back story of this entire concept of “Sandome no Kyoto” project.
Nakajima is a professional photographer, born and raised Kyoto-Native, with extremely keen and delicate eyes to captivate many different degrees of Kyoto and its special culture to others. He has been specialized in photography of Kyoto's Temples, Shrines and Buddha Statues. He pioneered his own way to optimize those Kyoto's special culture and beauty to express that out to the world with his own words.
He will share his passions and beautiful photographs through out this web site. Let's explore his arts and hearts. It will be fun to see very special Kyoto that you never been to, world heritage ancient Kyoto thru a brand new set of eyes.

Q1. We are so curious why and how you started photographing Kyoto's temples.

Nakajima: My father is a photographer, specialized in temples and Buddha statues and the ancient arts from Kyoto. I grew up with those photographs and images all around me in my childhood. And of course with cameras as well. To be honest, I never found it so exciting, interesting or anything… I had never dreamed about picking up a camera as my career either.
When I was in High School, British Royal Couple, Prince Charles and Princess Diana came to visit Kyoto. They took a trip to Shisendo, and their official photographer at Shisendo was my father. I skipped school and went to see them. (Laughs)
I still remember some off-shots, unofficial shots, like Princess Diana's shoes and so forth at our home. Even at that time, with such a big event and privilege that my father honored, I didn't realize how awesome my father's job was.
When I was in college, I finally started realizing that my father was doing something very valuable. After I graduated, I had an urge to get some sort of skills, and decided to give it photography a try. It was more like natural consequences rather “being struck in a head” milestone or any “eye opening drama” happened and prompted me into Photography like other great photographers' key-moment stories.

語らう

写真家 中島光行

2/8

聞き手 「三度目の京都」スタッフ

それでは、写真をはじめたのは・・・

中島大学卒業直後からです。
父の紹介で便利堂っていう美術出版社の写真部に入ったんです。東京赴任になって三年間東京で修行させていただいて、それから京都戻ってきて六年間お世話になりました。
その九年間は、ほぼ美術品とお寺の撮影しかやらなくて。当時は全部フイルム撮影だったんですけど、展覧会図録やお寺の写真集のための撮影とか、行政から依頼されるような文化財の撮影とか・・・そういう撮影をずっと仕込まれました。
出版社に入った当初はね、カメラマンっていうのはスタジオでモデルを「いいよいいよ」って言いながら撮るもんだと思ってたけど、実際は倉庫みたいなところで仏像や美術品と対峙する毎日で、師弟関係も厳しくて、思い描いてたカメラマンのイメージとあまりにもかけ離れてたんで『全然華やかちゃうやん!』って思ってましたね(笑) 本当に修行のような九年間でした。
でも、今思うとやれないことやらせてもらえてたんだなってフリーになって改めて気づいたんです。あの九年間はいいものをたくさん見れてたし、お寺の秘仏とか国宝級のものを撮れたり、めったにできないことをやらせてもらえてたんですよね。

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Interview

Photographer: Mitsuyuki Nakajima

02/08

Q2. When did you actually start shooting?

Nakajima: I started right after I graduated from college. My father introduced me to a photography department of an art publishing company called “Benrido”. I was transferred to their Tokyo office, being trained for three years, then came back to Kyoto and stayed there for another six years.
I took only temples' photos for the first nine years, using analog “old school” cameras for their exhibition brochures or coffee-table picture books. I also took pictures of cultural heritage sites as of Japanese government's projects.
When I just started, I thought I would be taking photos of models in a cool set up in the studio. The reality was, though, much harder and tougher, shooting Buddha statues, paintings, potteries, and so in the dark-warehouse-like back shed of the temples; it was far different from what I was fantasizing. I was like… “hey who said this would be a fun and cool job!!” lol
I cannot believe how hard the first nine years was!

Nakajima: When I look back those old days, now I see it, as a freelance photographer, it was such an incredible privilege to capture those genuine, historical art pieces that you won't even be allowed to enjoy in a real life in person!
I ‘ve got to see and know many valuable astonishing art pieces. One time I took pictures of secret Buddha statues, which were considered as valuable as national treasures. Those were quite significant experiences.

語らう

写真家 中島光行

3/8

聞き手 「三度目の京都」スタッフ

身近にあるときは気づかなかったんですね。

中島フリーになって被写体がガラッと変わったせいもあると思います。毎日撮っててそれが当たり前すぎて気づかなかったんでしょうね。『やっぱりいいものを撮りたい』って改めて思うようになりました。
京都にはいいお寺が本当にたくさんあるんです。世界中の人が訪れるような有名なお寺だけじゃなくて。はずれにある小さなとこにもいいお寺があるんですよ。だからね、いつも思ってました、『せっかく京都に来るんだったら知らないお寺にも立ち寄ったらええのに』って。『なんで来ーへんの?』って。

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Interview

Photographer: Mitsuyuki Nakajima

03/08

Q3. So, you didn't recognize the value at the time?

Nakajima: After I became a freelance photographer, my shooting subjects became far different from the Buddha statues and historical pieces of art, I craved for “real” beauty and missed what I used to shoot. There are ton of temples in Kyoto, as you know. It is always fun to hit the major guide-booked temples and shrines, but Kyoto can offer so much more interesting stories in many more extraordinary small temples. I just simply thought that I could be a guide to those who had already been and seen the major spots or temples in Kyoto. I always thought, “it is time to know the real Kyoto spirits! I will lead your way!”
Come back again! And again! Your third Kyoto trip, you will find the real taste of Kyoto essences.

語らう

写真家 中島光行

4/8

聞き手 「三度目の京都」スタッフ

その思いがこの「三度目の京都」プロジェクトにつながっていったんですよね。

中島はい、とにかくあまり知られていないお寺をもっと知ってもらいたいって思ってて。なんとかして僕が見てきた「いいお寺」を紹介できないかなと。
そんな話を当時フリーでカメラマンをしてた須藤くんと何回か話してたことがあって。そしたら、彼がディスカバリー号を設立したときに「今なら実現できますよ」って言ってくれたんです。
僕はフリーになってからも寺院を撮りつづけてきましたが、これまでは撮っても撮ってもそれが世に出るわけでもなくただ蓄積されるだけで、僕もそれをどうすることもできなくて・・・そんな状況を須藤くんたちに相談したんです。そうしたら、僕の写真や考えを面白がってくれる人が集まってくれて。どうせならWebサイトにしようということで、この「三度目の京都」へとつながっていきました。

フリーになってからは世に出すわけでもなく撮りつづけてきたということですが、寺院から依頼されて撮っていたわけではないんですね。

中島もちろん依頼を受けて撮影させていただくこともありますが、お寺さんから「撮りにきて」と言われることはフリーになってからはあまりなくて、こちらからオファーして撮らせてもらってます。お金をいただいて撮ってるわけじゃないので苦しいときは撮れない時期もありました。

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Interview

Photographer: Mitsuyuki Nakajima

04/08

Q4. Was that your major motivation for to launch this “Sandome no Kyoto” project?

Nakajima: Yes. I wanted to let people know more about the temples that are not on the major guidebooks or on the route of sightseeing tour busses. I always thought “how can I introduce ‘nice temples' that I know?” I had a chance to chat over this with Mr. Sudo, who at the time was also a freelance photographer. When he launched his new company “Discovery-go”, he told me “it was the time to give the vision a reality.”
I was taking pictures of temples even after I became a freelancer, photos are just keep piling up in my disks without any opportunity to be shared with anyone. I couldn't find the way out of this dilemma, but until I talk to Mr. Sudo and his team. As more people got interested and drawn into my ideas, we started forming a concept and finally it became e a website idea of the “Sandome no Kyoto” project.

Q5. You mentioned that you had taken photos of temples and so forth even after you became a freelance photographer, had you had any job offer for the shoots from those temples?

Nakajima: I have some calls and offers of work from temples, but not as many as I used to …, especially after I became a freelance photographer. I was the one offering and asking temples to allow me to take some pictures. I don't get paid from those works, though. So I had to reduce them and took other opportunities to make myself living.

語らう

写真家 中島光行

5/8

聞き手 「三度目の京都」スタッフ

話は少し逸れますが、今はお寺を維持していくことも大変なんですよね?

中島お寺を護るためには修繕工事をしたり手入れをしつづけないといけないですから当然お金もかかります。それを拝観料でなんとか賄っているお寺さんも多くて維持していくのは決して楽ではないでしょうね。檀家さんがいらっしゃるお寺なら御布施とかもあるんでしょうけれど最近ではそういうのも減ってきているみたいです。

そういう意味では、「三度目の京都」で取り上げているような知る人ぞ知るお寺にもっと人が訪れるようになることは、お寺を護ることにもつながるように思えます。私は「三度目の京都」に携わってみて、そういう点でも意義のあるプロジェクトだと感じました。

中島だけど、人助けみたいなことをしてるつもりもなくて、僕はただいいものがそこにあるから『来たらいいのに』って思ってるだけなんですよ。何度も京都を訪れるなら有名なお寺に加えて一箇寺でも「三度目の京都」で紹介しているようなお寺も訪れてほしい。それも歳をとってからとかじゃなくて若いうちに来てみてほしいです。若いからこそ感じられるものがあると思いますし、そのときは分からなくても後から気づけることもあるはずです。

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Interview

Photographer: Mitsuyuki Nakajima

05/08

Q6. Changing the subject a little bit, in this difficult time, do you think it became harder for temple owners to maintain their temples?

Nakajima: It costs tremendous amount of money to maintain temples; their interiors and exteriors, which requires specials and professionals to keep them in good shape. And uses of admission incomes are major use for that type of expenses and cost for them. They do receive some donations but it becomes more insignificant toward their income nowadays.

Q7. If so, the “Sandome no Kyoto” project might become some of help and support to those temples. Especially for those small ones as one of the project members, I see this project might play a role as that can be substantial to those small temples!

Nakajima: Helping small temples is not necessarily the primary goal of this project. And I was not asked to promote any of those that I share here as well. I just wanted to say, “Why don't you come to these amazing temples?” I want people to know, especially those who have been to Kyoto several times already, “Sandome no Kyoto” can help you to discover better and more exciting Kyoto-experience. Some says those smaller temples were for you to visit when you got wiser and older, but why not now? Even younger generation can appreciate the tranquility, definitely less and fewer people to juggling through. Those temples can offer you so many feels and atmosphere; you may enjoy or even remember later on.

語らう

写真家 中島光行

6/8

聞き手 「三度目の京都」スタッフ

中島さんも若い頃に見ていたからこそ後からその良さに気づいたんですもんね。
現代では特に若者とお寺の間には距離を感じます。何百年も昔はお寺と人との距離はもっと近くて、お寺は人々の生活の中で自然と護られてきたはずですが・・・

中島もっとふらっと来たらいいんですよ。ツアー組んでとかじゃなくてね、『時間できたからちょっとあのお寺に行こう』って休憩しにいくみたいなかんじで来てみてほしいです。その辺で本や雑誌を買ってきてお寺で読んだりね。ふらっと行けるってことが距離が縮まってるってことでしょうし。

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Interview

Photographer: Mitsuyuki Nakajima

06/08

Q8. As you mentioned, this temple visit can be memorable and appreciated in a few years later. When you were young, you could not see it but it pops coming back to you and made you think about it in later on your life. I think younger generations never occur to be so close to temples or shrines, but I hope this projects fill up this gap between younger people and temples.

Nakajima: I think people should visit temples more! Not because you are on the sightseeing package tour. Visit there to take a deep breath and winding down a bit, you can drop by to read the book, or magazine. So much richer experience than at Starbucks.
If we could help people to visit and enjoy being at temples, it would be our ultimate accomplishment!

語らう

写真家 中島光行

7/8

聞き手 「三度目の京都」スタッフ

ああ、クリエイターの子たちが仕事に行き詰まると好きなカフェに行って読書したり美術館に行ったりする・・・ああいう感じですよね。

中島そうそう。踏み入れた瞬間に非日常を感じられる最たる場所がお寺だと思うんです。
一歩踏み入れると異空間が広がっていて、瞬時に現実から離れられて。「自分を見つめなおす時間」なんて言うと重たくなるけど、五分でもいいからそこに佇む時間がつくれる・・・というのがお寺なのかなって思うんです。月に一回でもそういう五分があるといいのかなって。
たとえば現実逃避に高速のって京都に来てお寺の縁側に一時間座って帰るってすごく贅沢な時間でしょ?

「三度目の京都」に携わってから私も詩仙堂や圓光寺に初めて行きましたが、あまり知られていない分、人で混雑もしていないので静かでとても落ち着くんですよね。初めて行った場所なのに懐かしさを感じました。

中島もう二・三回来たら『帰ってきた!』みたいな感覚になりますよ(笑)
丁度いい規模感ですしね。伽藍の広いお寺ももちろんいいけれど、あれくらいの規模感が僕は好きです。

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Interview

Photographer: Mitsuyuki Nakajima

07/08

Q9. Many of those creators prefer to take visits to café or museums, visiting temples can be the same, you think?

Nakajima: Most definitely! I believe that is the best place to enhance your sensible creativities and passions. It would make a world difference! Soak your self into the perfect tranquility and calmness that you can trip into, separate yourself from the noises that surrounded you.. It may sound a bit deep and complicated, but there is nothing like that! “Taking a moment to see yourself and put your self deep into YOU!” . I think temples are places that give us time, even if only for 5 minutes, and help us to clear our minds. It can make a difference in your life, even if you can only do it once a month. Take, a quick road trip to Kyoto just sit on the veranda of a temple for an hour and then go back on road home. Sounds pretty luxurious, doesn't it?

Q10. I visited Shisendo and Enkou Temples for the first time after I had a chance to know them thru “Sandome no Kyoto” project. Much less crowded than those major ones on the guidebook. They had very quiet and relaxing atmospheres. Even though my first time visiting those temples, I felt kind of nostalgic.

Nakajima: If you visit twice or more, more you go, you will find something more and new. And you might even feel like, “I'm back!” (Laughs). Those temples are the perfect size, not too big or not too small. They feel like home. Temples that have high cathedrals are impressive, but, personally, I prefer the smaller homey temples.

語らう

写真家 中島光行

8/8

聞き手 「三度目の京都」スタッフ

中島今回、事前に僕が撮ったお寺の写真を見てもらってましたが実際行ってみてどうでしたか?

行く前にこんなに写真を見ちゃったら訪れたときの楽しみが無くなるんじゃないかって思ったんです。でも、行ったら行ったで充分楽しめました。写っていないところもたくさんあるし、聞こえてくる音もいいし、『あ、あの写真はこの角度から撮ったのかあ』みたいな楽しみ方もあって。

中島実際行くと『このお寺のここにあるんだ』って位置関係が分かりますよね。説明的な写真はあえて撮っていないので、「三度目の京都」を見てくれた方々には答え合わせに来てもらってまたそこから自分なりに感じてもらえたらいいですね。
「三度目の京都」サイトには「このお寺は何宗で」とか「この仏像がどうで」とか説明的な情報も載せてないんです。そういうウンチクは押しつけたくなくて。ただただ、空間を感じにきてほしい。
僕の写真は「僕が好きな場所」を「僕の視点」で撮っているだけだから皆さんには、「自分の好きな場所」を「自分の視点」で見つけてもらえたらうれしいです。

(2012年11月)

Interview

Photographer: Mitsuyuki Nakajima

08/08

Nakajima: I showed you some pictures of those two temples before you visited them, what was it like when you actually saw them in person?

I was a bit worried because I was already familiar with many scenes from your photos, as if I may not be able to enjoy the temples in person after, however it was very pleasant experience! I could find there were may enjoyable moments to be there. I could find many things that were not in the pictures you had shown me. The sound inside the temples was nice and peaceful. Plus I enjoyed looking for the angles of the scene from the photos you captured.

Nakajima: When you actually take a visit there, you will be able to see how the photos were taken at the locations. You even may find yourself enjoying the “treasure hunting game”. I intentionally don't take any self-explanatory pictures. I want you to find some interests at our website of the “Sandome no Kyoto” project, or if you've been there already, hope we can find your feelings and memories at the temple on the website, I don't want to explain anything about the different schools of religions, or the meanings of the different Buddha statues, because I don't want to force my knowledge on others. I just want people to feel the atmosphere.
My pictures only describe “my favorite places” from “my point of view”, so I would like you to find your favorite place from your point of view.

(November 2012)

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